Masks Show and Tell

On this week's ADVENTing, Dr. Madan Kandula and Dr. Ethan Handler discuss different types of masks and what constitutes a good night sleep.

- Hey, it's Dr. Madan Kandula founder of ADVENT and a host of ADVENTing. Our show about ENT issues and issues in the world in general as they surround our noses and throats. I'm here with ADVENT's own doctor Ethan Handler. How are you doing?

- I'm doing well Yourself?

- I am doing well. Spring is here.

- Mmmm

- Correct?

- Yap.

- COVID is on the run.

- You're chasing that beast away, right?

- It gets warmer, it goes bye bye.

- That's what we hope. I don't know. There's like anything anybody ever says on this, it's like conjecture, but it certainly seems promising. I guess I'd say if you look at sort of where the cases have happened in the world and this country, for those that aren't following this, I'd say there is hope and conjecture that the actual COVID virus does not like heat and it does not like humidity, which are the things that happen in the summertime. So I guess the good spin on this is our enemy, the world's enemy right now is about to get unleashed, at least in the Northern Hemisphere, is gonna get the unleashing of summertime. And hopefully that brings the fire and fury to our a friend. Right?

- Absolutely. And emerging out of three days of rain and flood here in Wisconsin. It's nice to see a sunny day and how to be warm.

- Yes. Indeed. You're breaking up on me a little bit. Can you still hear me?

- I can hear you. Yeah. You had a little glitch, but, we're back online.

- Alright. The glitches are... for all those who are living life in the virtual world. Everybody I think is used to glitches and glitching. So we are still virtual for the moments and so you'll get a little bit of that unfortunately. But with the world coming back online, spring is here as we talked about, but also like this whole, exit of hibernation is starting and we're also trying to figure that out. And so I think kind of, some interesting thoughts on how are we going to eat in restaurants and how are we gonna do the things that we've done before. So what do you think about restaurants and what's gonna be happening there?

- I mean I think that's pretty interesting. I even just having a conversation with my wife last night. Like when do we think we'll go to a restaurant again? I'm not in any rush just 'cause it's wasn't necessarily a high priority for me and the takeout thing's been going okay. And that's fine. And plus we have young kids and so if we're going to restaurant with our kids, like we weren't doing that anyway 'cause that's actually more torture than anything. So, date nights and things like that, it'll be nice to get back online. And so I guess it just depends on part of us wants to wait and see how these next few weeks kinda go and then take it day by day. 'Cause again as you and I know the amount of information coming in and the amount of changes occur rapidly in this current state and it's always evolving and changing. So it's part of just kinda getting used to that, new state of being, which is that there's a lot of unknown and things continue to change. So taking information as it comes and make choices based on that. So,

- Yeah. Are you gonna be bringing your mannequin to your next date night?

- I already have the mannequin in my car, it's in the passenger seat, so that'd be pretty, pretty easy move. like Costco, I have, they sold it for awhile, these giant bears that were probably pretty much like, bigger than my children. So we have three of those. So I think he'll be joining me for quite a few of these.

- Yeah, I think the move nowadays, you go to a restaurant, you get a table, the table that's next to you, you fill it with your, whatever mannequins you have on hand

- Right and then you've got appropriate distance. So you're sort of being, sort of the boss move. The alternative, this is actually the boss move I've never ever done, but I thought would be just boss, for any listeners, anybody who's viewing this, this is a do this and you'll be the man or the woman is, get for yourself a very nice looking reserved sign. And then wherever you go, just place that in strategically. And nowadays you can have distance because nobody's gonna question. If you do this professionally, you can go to your restaurant, you don't even need your mannequin. You can live your mannequin in your car safely, as you have a normal have it. And then you can bring your reserve sign out, put it on the table next to you and boom, you got immediate social distancing. So that's my pro tip to everybody out there, including you. That's pretty good. Right?

- That's great. And then of course you want a full blueprint of the restaurant to understand where airflow is going and moving and be at the front end of that, not the tail end, right?

- Correct. Yes.

- Have you seen those diagrams?

- Yeah. You need that. Obviously you have to have your scout team before you go man.

- But you gotta be prepared, scout team go in scout it out. Like you just look around. Okay fine, got this and then make sure you're prepared and yeah, you're all good.

- Or maybe it'll just be fans, at the front end and everybody's just getting blown and everything's going out the window behind them or something.

- Yes. Alright.

- Did you see the inner tubes? One last thing, did you see the inner tube tables that they had at these places that you could like, go outside and there's a big table in the inner tube and you can drink socially, but it was six feet inner tubes.

- No, I didn't see that one. I saw one where, and it's hard to know what's real and what's not real, where they had people in some Scandinavian country, I think they had like , the noodles and pools, the pool noodles think they had them attached to them so that they couldn't physically be with them.

- Oh, that's good.

- So there's that but, yes, social distancing is, we'll see how it actually plays. My strong suspicion is as summer comes into play and as we all get more comfortable being around each other, that will be lulled into a less and less distance, which could be our end. But I think it's also just kind of part of the human condition and we'll see how it plays. So yeah. But I guess on the topic of coronavirus and issues in general, masks are the rave nowadays and are very, very fashionable. So I think, although I do think there's, I guess just I think something worth talking about is just the various varieties of masks and why you use one thing versus the other. So what's the deal there? What current mask do you have on your face these days?

- Hmm I mean for me it depends on what setting. So I can certainly show us, so like in the office setting, obviously, we use PPE, which is personal protective equipment and masks that would protect against any, I guess potential exposure. Obviously we're doing all the things that we need to do, screening and making sure patients are safe, employees are safe and taking all the precautions that we need to. But quite a few of us providers when doing procedures in the nose area obviously are using these powered air purifying respirators. And so we have these, you want me to show you?

- Sure. I don't have a choice, but yes.

- You do not have a choice.

- And so for those of you out there, I won't wear it on my face, but if you can kinda see this is this portable PAPR if you will.

- Put it on. Nobody's gonna know what that is.

- Alright, alright.

- We also want to see how ridiculous you look.

- Here we go.

- Darth Vader ginger mask.

- Or Bane. It depends.

- Bane's too cool for you though.

- You know Bane.

- Hold on I can't move. I'm gonna have to pull this thing off. So, yeah, this is pretty much the setup right there. So this goes on, you turn it on, it's powered by a lithium battery and essentially it is filtering air through the back here, which is like, this is what coal miners were. It filters good for like three years, so.

- Gotcha. So the point, so just for our, the uninitiated including me so that's a PAPR, is a short way to say PAPR. What does paper stand for? You know it off the top of your head? powered

- Air purifying respirator. I'm gonna guess.

- That's what I would think. I guess so. I'm gonna go with that. Sounds pretty good. It's got all the right letters

- I should know that. I just know its PAPR, but yes.

- But that would be, that's the boss like that was be the personal reserve sign of masks. Like you can't get better than a PAPR mask. And a PAPR mask, I've never worn one. But it sounds like you, it feels pretty good from a breathing standpoint because it's not restrictive. Correct?

- Exactly right. This is actually moving air through a system versus a tight fitting. And we'll get into this N95 masks and I'm sure everybody kind of has heard that word now, but you don't end up in N95 mask. But you can buy, you see these, insect, when people go and spray the yard and they're wearing these masks with these filters. Right. And, those are kind of modified non powered PAPRs right. So I mean they are not necessarily pushing air through, but they're definitely high filtration versus N95s, which also filter out small little, organic and non organic matter. But if you're doing a procedure and you're in there its a long time, you're just breathing in your own breath, it can be uncomfortable. And so this is definitely a more comfortable way to do something even longer.

- So N95 so just to kind of walk people through it. So there's the PAPR ,there's N95, there are well I guess really then you walk down to surgical masks and masks in general. I think that's about it. So PAPRs we just talked about, N95s are masks that are filtering out, 95% of fill in the blanks. It's particles less than I think 0.3 microns. Does that sound about right?

- Yeah, 0.5 maybe.

- So it's basically a mask. So, so okay. PAPR is sort of, you're, breathing through this respirator and therefore it's filtering the air. And the N95 mask is you're breathing through a mask. Your every breath you take is coming through, filter through the mask. And it's filtering out however good the mask is, and N95 filters out quite a bit. And then a surgical mask just sits over your nose and your mouth. You're breathing through the mask, you're breathing around the mask. Conceptually they all are helpful in different ways and there's controversy around masks out in the world. But, and there's different uses for each of these things. But the reality I think for, I think our understanding of this right now is that masks in general can help to decrease the spread of anything including coronavirus. And the deal there is when you talk, when you breathe, when you cough, when you sneeze, you are expelling particles, droplets, respiratory droplets. I mean, and this is where, and there is some nuance here, so that maybe this is something to kind of go into a little bit more in detail, but there's a difference between droplets and aerosolized particles. So droplets are like, if you think about a glob of spit, I mean it's smaller than that, but if you think if you're talking and you're spitting, then that stuff is going out in the world and it's just landing on surfaces. Those are droplets. Respiratory droplets. We think that that's the most likely way for coronavirus to spread person to person is through respiratory droplets. So you need kind of a pretty intimate connection with people to have that happen. Then that's droplets and any mask is going to help to protect you from that to some extent.

- Right

- Then there's aerosolization which is you're shooting stuff out in the air that hangs out in the air for a long, long time. Pic frame that's where a lot of the, hysteria whatever the politically correct word for Syria is, I think has gotten in the mix is what if you're aerosolizing stuff that's staying in the air for hours and hours. And there's, how do you say is, in labs they can make such things happen, but in the real world it doesn't seem like that's so much a concern. But that's where an N95 masks and PAPRs really come in is this aerosolization. So all those things are ways that things can spread. And then there's the surfaces that we all touch and could you get it there? And the honest answer to my knowledge is, nobody really knows on surfaces. I mean, it can, the viruses can live on surfaces. Can you catch that? Can you catch coronavirus from those surfaces? Maybe, maybe not. I mean, it kinda, I've heard variety of different things that way. It hasn't been the primary mechanism of spread it's not been surfaces another word for surfaces, medical word for surfaces or fomites. And so you have a contaminated surface, which is called a formite. But anyway, regardless, I'd say you could get it from surfaces, you can get it from the air, you can get it from respiratory droplets. Respiratory droplets would be the most likely problematic area. In order to get it for somebody's respiratory droplets, they have to be actively infected. They may not be symptomatic, but they can get it that way. And so masks are a barrier between you and somebody else, between your areas where you can catch those viruses.

- Mmmh

- The main ones are your nose and your throat or your mouth. And then the eyes are another area. So that's kind of the mask concept. Generally speaking. So anything to add on the mask front?

- No, I mean, I think that again, like you said, it's just an added layer or barrier, you could take that to an extreme and with any, I guess, policy and whatnot. But I mean, it's just a matter of conceptually like, hey, you're, just adding another layer. Another barrier to protect potentially you and if you have it you don't know who might be around you, but, it's all, everything has to be kind of, one has to be thoughtful in how they're kind of going about the world and doing things. And again, one extreme or the other is not ideal.

- No.

- When it comes to mask wearing or mask shaming or whatnot.

- Correct Yeah, absolutely. And that's where, I mean this is my opinion as your opinion, but I would say yes, there's enough unknown in this situation where shaming one way or another is not helpful. And so you could do it and, it's sort of do it at your own risk because I would say the emperor is wearing no clothes here. So cause we don't, this is where it gets a little tricky on some of these things is some things sound fairly harmless and like what's the harm and everybody just putting a mask on, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'd say maybe there isn't. Maybe in the act of putting that mask on, you're just scooping up a whole gob of, of air that, what I'm saying? Maybe you're scooping a bunch of stuff up, slapping it on your face and maybe you're touching your face more when you put your mask on and off blah blah. So, I don't know. I'm not saying that that's true. I'm just saying that there's sort of, reason and good ways to think through things. And then there's the massive reality of the unknown, which will likely slap us all in the face. And so nobody should feel better than anybody else in this current day and age on any of this from a knowledge standpoint, 'cause we just don't know. So,

- Would be for or against the $1000 fines they're handing out in LA for anybody who goes out without a mask on.

- Yeah. Well I'm not gonna get into politics

- even if you're trying to drag me in. But I am...

- I know I won't drag you .

- I'm not getting into politics and I'm not gonna answer your question directly, but I am a proponent of individual and individual freewill and accepting the risks of the world and taking consequences. And you can't have one without the other. And so if you're gonna take a risk and you get punched or you get slapped 'cause you took a risk, don't complain. And vice versa. That's how I go. So that's what I would say

- I could agree with. I can agree with that philosophy.

- Well here's a good one.

- Yeah. I've been trying to think about a segue 'cause we had another topic week where we want to talk about which is sleep. So here's a good segue. Should you get fined for pulling an all nighter? Not getting your appropriate sleep and then hitting the roadways because are impaired? Are you more dangerous with out your mask or are you more dangerous because you didn't get a good night's sleep last night? And I know the answer there is you're more dangerous without any question in my mind, for somebody who is not sleeping properly and hitting the road, hitting heavy machinery, flying in air, you name it, fill in the blank on anything that's going to impact others. And I'd say, yeah more people have died and will die from the impact of poor sleep, sleep apnea, lack of sleep, than will die from any viral illness that will ever happen to humanity. True?

- Without a doubt. Without a doubt.

- We probably should talk about that versus, all the talk about coronavirus which is fine and good

- That subject right now... and yeah, the sort of elephant in the room is sleep for a lot of people. And I think that's where if you wanna shorten your life, you should sign up for a world where you're not getting proper sleep. If you really want to shorten your life sign up for sleep apnea that you're not treating. So I think those are truths that will hit you, unfortunately. But to flip around, I think when we think about sleep, I think there's sort of this, well let me go there. I'd say when we think about anything in the world, including sleep, there's this nodding of heads and the assumption of knowledge, which is back to the emperor wearing no clothes, is people don't know, like what is a good night's sleep mean? What does that even mean? Is that based on hours or based on what, so what, what sleep in general, let's talk about that. And, what's the deal? What would you consider a good night's sleep to be?

- What would I consider a good night's sleep to be? That's a good question. And then again, there's multiple ways to answer that, but a minimum amount of hours that is good quality sleep. And then of course, what does it mean to have good quality sleep? And so and we won't get into the nitty gritty of this 'cause it can get quite into the weeds. But there are different levels of sleep and there are different stages of that sleep cycle. And so and I was having this conversation actually with a patient today who has a Fitbit 'cause everybody's got a wearable now that measures something and then tells them something in the morning when they wake up. Like, Hey, you only had this patient in particular had, what was it, 11 minutes of deep sleep. And so like, what does that mean to you when you have your Fitbit or your Apple watch tell you you had 11 minutes of deep sleep? How's that explained? Is that good? Is it bad? Like what does that mean? And so and the reality is, I don't know the algorithms for how they measure those things for Fitbits and Apple watches and things like that. But I think that the way that we could talk about things, because this patient has sleep apnea and they heard about one of these breath holding spell events. Every other minute . Their number was 30 their AHI was 30 so that could be kind of severe sleep apnea. And the best way to describe it is, it's about quality it's not about quantity that granted it doesn't mean you're gonna get two hours of sleep quality sleep and you good. There's still a kind of a minimum threshold you want to hit, but it's the kind of sleep you get during that period of time, not the number of hours . 'Cause somebody who has sleep apnea might sleep 10 hours and still feel crappy when they wake up in the morning. And the questions, well, why is that? And the best way I can kind of explain it in a general approach is you never really get into those deeper stages of sleep, which are kind of the regenerative stages of sleep, which are important, which helps recharge the batteries. And, regenerate the body in mind and that sort of thing. And so if you're constantly being kind of ripped up out of sleep, you still have to progress through the same stages each time. You can't just skip, you can't just jump right from stage one into stage four REM and there's different again stages and so you have to progress through that kind of same chain. And so if you're never able to get deep, you'll just continue to get like ripped out of I guess the less deep sleep and never get into your good level stages. Is kind of the way I think about it. So that's the long answer to is it a good night's sleep or not? Like, I know a little bit about it and I know the things that will make me have poor sleep. Like, Hey, if I decide to have a glass of wine at night, like I know I'm taking a little different chance and it might affect my sleep quality versus Hey, if I stay up till 2:00 AM that's gonna change my sleep quality that day. And so there's other outliers I think that play a role or variables play a role. But I know you are going to have an explanation that simplifies what I just said in that paragraph.

- Yeah, so that was a lot of words like I don't know.

- I think is that what you just said? I think that's what I think,

- I know for me, I think it means something for everybody. But I'm gonna give you a shot at this one.

- Well, I wouldn't say

- Can't do a little approach.

- Well, I mean I'm gonna go deep here, but the more we think we know about sleep, the less we actually know which your soliloquy is prove to everybody in the world is that

- I'm a living example of that. Maybe you, didn't get enough sleep last night, but, no, I would say it's challenging to talk through it because it's different from person to person. That's true. There is though each individual's body has sort of a want for a certain quantity of quantity of sleep in an adult, I'd say it's generally somewhere in the seven to eight hour ballpark could be longer, could be shorter. And so trying to meet your body's demands are helpful. Most people don't get the amount of sleep that they sort of that their bodies are searching for just because of lifestyle. One could be lifestyle and choices but a lot of times it's because of issues. Sleep apnea is one in particular. And so when you're sleeping, there's a lot of factors that go in it. We could go on and on, we could talk for months on all the factors of sleep. But I'd say, here's a question you have to give me the answer in two seconds is what is the most fundamental way to impact somebody's sleep?

- Clog their nose.

- I'm gonna give you half credit. The airway. Meaning if you want to guarantee that somebody's going to have a horrific nights sleep, you compromise the airway. If you want to guarantee that somebody is gonna have the best possible sleep based on the situation that they're in, you make sure their airway is open. It is that simple. And so you could add on to that and you'd say, well, yeah, I have a glass of wine. What happens when I have a glass of wine? When you have a glass of wine, your nose stuffs up a little bit. Your brain gets into a different mode. Your body can't get in deep levels of sleep. Your airway is compromised. There's just sort of a ripple effect that happens there. And so I think for those that are walking around the world, in the world with a compromised airway you are shortchanging each night that you have to sleep. You're, shortchanging each day that you have to live. And you are taking sort of, taking away from the years that you have ahead of you because your airway's compromised. And so say you have, I mean imagine this scenario. So basically for those that don't know if somebody has sleep apnea, what's happening there is the throat is too tight and likely their nose is too tight. And so when they're sleeping, they can't breathe properly. And so they snore and they make that annoying sound and then they will stop breathing because their body literally shuts down in the back of their throat. That's what sleep apnea is. And it's that's stark and it's that scary, but you're asleep so you don't really know that's going on. And so you kind of get lulled in the sense that, whatever, it's not that big a deal. My wife complains about my snoring, so what I'll just kind of keep on keeping on. Now flip that around and you take a normal person with a normal airway and I have you go to sleep and what do you think is gonna happen when they come in the middle of the night? I put my hands around your neck and I strangle you just enough to, I'm not gonna really make myself known so much, but just enough so that you can't take a breath of air in. And then just when you're about to gasp, I'm going to take my hands away and I'm going to say, Hey I'm not gonna say anything 'cause I want to just sort of sneak up on you and not make you aware of that. And imagine that normal airway person with somebody just doing that one time in the course of the night. And I can guarantee you they'll probably have the worst night's sleep they've ever had. They'll probably have nightmares, they'll be sweating that night blah, blah blah. That's just one time. For somebody as sleep apnea. If somebody has that happened one time, it doesn't even record on our measurements. It's not even on the radar screen. We don't even consider that an issue. So in order to have sleep apnea, you have to have those sorts of things happening, 10 or more times, every single hour. And many people have that happening a hundred times or more every hour. And so you take my ridiculous example and say, I'm gonna one up you there and say that happens. That ridiculous example is, benign compared to what actually happens to put people out in the real world. And it just makes it that stark and it makes it sort of understandable that that's not, There's nothing okay about it. and it is something that deserves its attention. And I think that's where it gets challenging its 'cause for us it is that real, it's that much of an issue that people need to know about it. And I think you don't need to be a rocket scientist. You don't need to be anything to get that concept, but it's very, very impactful. So, yeah. Any thoughts on that?

- No, but you definitely use more words than me.

- Yeah. But, and I said nothing,

- but I also said nothing in a more elegant manner. So I hope, you're taking notes on how to say a lot of words, but come off seeming like you just said something.

- I'm learning more and more each week as we're doing this. There's no question about that,

- But I mean, I think the fundamental is though, back to sleep and the thing I was gonna say before I started talking was like, we know, how do you know how much sleep somebody needs? You know that by experimenting and depriving people of sleep and seeing how their body reacts and so people are running these experiments on a day to day basis with our own lives, which is unwise. So I wouldn't recommend that, but we don't like why as animals do we need sleep to begin with. And every animal does need to sleep. And it seems pretty, if you think about just the fundamentals there, it's like let's just take eight hours, eight hours of the day that you are supposed to be checking out, tuning out think about are our ancestors, out and the harm that that exists in the world is, does it seem wise to sort of check your mind out, check your body out, lay down and wait for the tiger to come and eat you up. It seems like a sort of design flaw that we need to sleep to begin with.

- That's true.

- But we do we do, we need it. And so we need to protect and preserve what is necessary. So we will down the road talk about many aspects of sleep, but I think the fundamentals there, just to kind of recap. I mean sleep is important. It's necessary. Sleep in order to sleep properly. Your body needs to go through various stages of sleep, from awake, to light, sleep, deep sleep, REM sleep, on down the line there are categories. We're not gonna test you on this, but really in order what needs to happen is your body needs to cycle through. Your body doesn't just go from awake to light sleep to deep sleep and you're asleep all night and then you wake up, it cycles through where you're going from, various stages up and down. And we don't know why that is, but we know that when it doesn't happen it's a problem. And when it doesn't happen definitively is when you can't breathe properly, you're not going to get into deep levels of sleep and therefore you're going to walk around dragging during the day. And your body's gonna be letting you know about that. And so again, I think there's, I think with this specific issue, coming back to it again and again is gonna be helpful because there's so many different ways you can kinda, come after it. But I think our time is running short. So I think we kinda need to move on unless you have any parting words on the sleep topic?

- No, I mean, I just think that it's such a, it's a topic that is so broad because sleep impacts everything that we do in our lives and our health, like broadly. So I mean there's, so many different pathways that we can go down this and we're just scratching the tip of the iceberg currently, but more to come for sure.

- Which I think is a good segue to a topic that I wanna get my shout out today, is also a topic of something that touches everybody's life. It's been impactful for the last 40 years. Really important. It's, the Beastie boys .

- And so, okay. I'm just to see if anybody else is on the same page. No, honestly, I read the Beastie boys books, the two remaining members books that one member passed away. But the two guys that are left, wrote a book earlier this year, which I read when it came out, which is awesome. And then the documentary that's on Apple TV, I just watched that, which I thought was awesome. And I honestly, I mean I'm joking in a way, but I'm not joking. I think when you listen to their story or read their story it's sort of the every man's story and it's the entrepreneur story in my mind and it's the story of perseverance. The story of a team that's working together that loves each other at times and at times is trying to figure it out and the way they had to reinvent themselves is phenomenal. I think that's what impresses me with the beastie I liked the music. I liked the music fine. I mean, I grew up, they came on the scene when I was in high school and it was something that was, it just was a complete shock to the system. The Beastie boys were for those who were living it. You were in diapers, unfortunately.

- But I wasn't.

- So you were in high school, I was eight. I listened to Beastie boys plenty.

- Okay. Alright. So you've got street credits, well then I guess. But anyway I would say to me like, honestly, as somebody in the world, I'd say now, unfortunately they're are no longer, I mean they lost, I can never remember the name. Their names always known in my mind. So maybe I'm some sort of anti-Beastie identity kind of person, but I can never remember which one's which. But I know one of them is no longer, and so the band is no longer. But listening to their story for me it was going from high school to college and on through life and sort of how they went from, really nothing to sort of punk rock, post-punk to frat rap kind of thing to next level, electronic sampling kind of thing, back to playing their own instruments. It's just, I thought it was interesting. So it was just something that I felt like was, something that I don't know that most people would associate with anything that we do, but I'd say I personally have appreciated their mindset and appreciate their presence in the world. Even the nice thing with music is they can still have a presence in the world even when they are no longer making active music anymore. So any thoughts on the Beastie boys or anybody else?

- Yeah, no. I mean I saw, I watched, I think I have 20 minutes left, but I watched most of it on Saturday night on Apple TV and so I love License to Ill and what I thought was pretty interesting and I mean, it was crazy actually that they did so great with that first album, had massive success

- Yap.

- And never heard of the second album growing up. You, it never realized that, like it came out all this hype and crickets and I always said it was crickets, like nobody bought it, which is just nuts to me. And for them to be like, alright okay, let's go back to the drawing board. And there was some tragedies and some other things that happened that kind of got them back together and thinking about how they wanted to redo their music and come back. But I mean, talk about a shot is like having so much success being at the height and then boom. Like why is that? And so instead of being bogged down by, and feeling sorry for themselves about why they didn't have success with their second album, they like went back to the drawing board. recreated themselves, like you said. So,

- Yeah. And I think, I mean to me the commonality from like their whole career arc was, staying true to their core values. I think their core, but it sounds like a business and it sound but it was, I mean, they weren't theoretically considered a business, but if they were, they would be massively successful as just a business. So, I almost would say to me, and I do do this when I , I'm a huge music fan and every band, I'm a rock music fan specifically, but for really every band is its own entrepreneur story. Origin story, starting out from nothing, making something and then evolving over time with the forces around them. And I'd say the Beastie boys are the epitomy of that and again, I appreciate how they told their story because they told it I felt from a real angle and they really took you behind the scenes in, what does it feel like to be, more famous than Madonna when Madonna was the biggest thing in the world. And then to be nothing like nothing. And then, and almost it's the juxtaposition there is if you've had that level of whatever notoriety then going to nothing does it, it makes your nothingness less nothing than the next guy's nothingness because that you have something to relate it to. So anyway, it's just an interesting story arc. But and I guess again, I mean I think for kind of what we do and what we try to bring in, it is something that, it seems like a strange influence, but it would say it's there. And there are many things that kinda come together to sort of impact you. And I would say for me, I mean, it's not the biggest influence in the world for me personally, but it's not the smallest influence in the world. Their story and music in general I think is really important. But anyway, I think that is the end of our time. So anything else to add? Any other shout outs or any other, anything else to say?

- No, but I'll have to pick your brain on the arc of U2 and that band next episode.

- Yeah, not as impactful as the Beastie boys, in my opinion. Although I think it was a bigger fan of U2 at any particular point in time. And then the Beastie boys. But but yeah, another day, another time as another day, another time I'll tell you that again. My claim to fame, my one claim to fame

- At a party.

- I was at a party with the Beastie boys in 1990 in New York city. So

- So that's more famous than you going to med school with pimple pop.

- Well that's my true claim to fame.

- Yes.

- So another day, another time for all my, how do you say this? All my interactions with greatness. So we'll get there. Maybe this will be one of them. Maybe someday we'll look back on, 5-20 with Dr.Handler and I'll say I did a whole segment with him. The man, the myth, the legend. So we'll see.

- That would be awesome.

- It would be awesome. So it's up to you. You could make that happen. So just live your life well, get some good sleep. Read well wear your masks. That's all we have for today. So thank you for watching and listening. If you are watching us on YouTube, sign up and subscribe and maybe give us a nice little comment or rating. And same thing on audio form. If you are listening to us and like what you're hearing, let us know and we will see you next time. That's all we got. Take care.

- Take care All right. 5-20-2020.

- I didn't see that. That's cool. Yeah.

- Nice. Great. How was it?

- Good

- I liked it. Getting better

- Getting real good. Yeah.

- What are we around 40 minutes on this one Foster?

- Yeah, I think we started at like 23 minutes in or like an hour or so.

- Yeah. So that's still good. Yeah.

- What do we, what do we want? What's our ideal times?

- 20-30 minutes, something like that.

- I'd put the PAPR on upside down so I couldn't, the on button was in the wrong place and I couldn't raise like, alright.

- Yeah. People are gonna call you out on that. People in the real world, they're gonna see that and they're like, he's just, it's make-believe.

- This is like, don't ask me the acronym.

- Yeah. Alright. Yeah, I was shorter. I get it. I felt like it was going on.

- Yeah, I agree. But enjoyable.

- Okay. Anything else?

- Anything different next week? Time wise?

- I mean, are you helping coordinate with, I guess Sarah would be the point person. And then for me, I don't know who Sarah would be probably Margaret I guess.

- Yeah. We're in for 12.30 next week. I haven't heard anything that that's not right.

- All right.

- fro D. Kambula

- Cool

- Just a heads up on the 4th he will be traveling. So I know this is the 3rd, 4th and 5th. So that might be an issue on the 3rd.

- On the third of what? June or July?

- June

- A couple of weeks.

- Where are you off to?

- Denver.

- Nice.

- Yes.

- Oh, that makes sense.

- Yes.

- Flying, I assume.

- Yeah, that's right. Flapping my arms.

- Very good. Well, I wish you all the best on that trip and journey.

- What's that?

- Said I wish you all the best.

- Thank you.

- Cool.

- All right. And Foster, I'll let you know if that doesn't work, but it, I think it's probably fine. You said next Monday is that, or sorry, next 25th 26th?

- The 2nd of June.

- That's our next one.

- Well it's not, but it was gonna be the third. But Dr. Kandula is out to Denver, so we're thinking of doing it on Tuesday, the day before.

- So we're doing every two weeks.

- No we still have next week on the books, right? 12.30

- Yeah. 12.30 is still.

- Which day.

- 12.30 on the 27th, which is next week. The week after that, Dr. Kandula is not available on Wednesday the 3rd, we were gonna move it to Tuesday the 2nd at 12.30.

- Yeah. Oh yeah. I've got I'm blocked next week. Okay. And then, sorry, you said the next Tuesday.

- Looks like Dr. Kandula you've got stuff going on on Tuesday.

- Standing meetings that start of 11.30 and go until 2.30.

- All right, Sarah, maybe do you want to loop in then you guys can loop in and then with Margaret and block my schedule?

- Yeah.

- Yeah. We can either go earlier or later.

- That's all right.

- Madan I need 30 seconds just to ask you about something for a quarterly SCA thing.

- Okay. That's fine.

- Thank you guys.

- Thank you all.

- Thank you everyone. All right. Yeah.

- See ya.

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